Curse

BlackSephir · Nov 22, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rb.widow

Your trying to nerf a skill that it used by people who dont run UWSC though, its a catch 22, you nerf it for one group who exploit its power, and screw over the honest group who dont.

They should just add random traps around the underworld that spike for 400 damage and remove all enchantments from target who triggered them. That'd make balanced teams a must.

Stop the jokes, SF isn't used in normal play and that's the problem. It's only used in gimmicky farming/running builds.

Quote:

Skills that shouldn't be in the game should be effectively removed from the game.

Or changed so that its effect would no longer harm the game and be useful at the same time.
Apparently some people don't get this. Those people know shit about balancing and the only things they can think of is "BUFF IT TO HEAVENS" AND "NERF IT TO OBLIVION".

gremlin · Nov 22, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I don't have enough information to decide why and how this skill should be changed.
So I will leave that to the experts but the current builds would seem to go against what the assassin was in its infancy.

I always thought they intended the assassin to be surgical tool of the melee classes.
Never a tank but a fast moving strike and run class with the ability to disable and maybe kill one target then get out of range again.

The ability to remain in combat almost indefinitely seems against the spirit of the class.
If that's what people want then its fine by me, as long as its not compulsory

vamp08 · Nov 22, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

... It just that by doing so, you'd need to be effectively removed out of the game. It's insane defence should be countered by it's lack of offence.

Shadow Form:

For X sec. you cannot be the target of spells or attacks; You can not cast spells, skills or signets while under the effects of this enchantment. You move 33% faster.

B = tenative

Steps_Descending · Nov 22, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

That in combination with my suggestion would be brilliant. Then it would be useful only for what it was originally intended for, tanking.

Was it indeed the original point of the skill? Do we really want it to be usable to tank? Do you really like to have a completely invincible tank in a game? (OK not 100% invincible, but the closest we have to invincibility)

I tought the idea of the skill was to keep the assassin alive without allowign it to stay focused for hours. Basically to stay up long enough for a kill.

Personnally I'd go for something like that :

For 25 sec (at 16 shadowArt, that means 30 sec with enchant mod), Attack and spells against you miss. Cooldown : 60 sec.
That would mean the minimum cooldown is 30 sec, it last 30 sec. But there is a 1-2 second window while you recast it that kills you if you tank. Maybe the window should be bigger to make sure the sin die even with a monk.
And in normal gameplay it still give near total protection, just have to make sure you're away from the fight for 2-3 second once in a while.

upier · Nov 22, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Shadow Form:

For X sec. you cannot be the target of spells or attacks; You can not cast spells, skills or signets while under the effects of this enchantment. You move 33% faster.

B = tenative

Maybe something like:
For X sec. you cannot be the target of spells or attacks. While under the effects of this enchantment you can not attack nor can you cast spells OUTSIDE of SF.

And then, keep the ability to keep it up permanently alive.

BlackSephir · Nov 22, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

About as useful as Defy Pain.
Which means FA would be full of SF sins.

upier · Nov 22, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I thought we were talking about a PvE-only change?

Icy The Mage · Nov 22, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by subarucar

For limiting energy you could make it set you energy regen to +2 or something. To stop zealous scythes make it so you cannot attack/all attacks miss.

I like the idea of having a skill that allows another class to tank, however being invincible and still being able to deal damage is extremely OP.

I'm not sure if it's just the way I've played DoA, but the perma tanks cannot keep SF up indefinitely, meaning they must ball the group quickly, and the team must be fast in killing before SF drops. Something like this would be a good nerf for SF, however something different may be required, otherwise the game will just end up being spikeways, in fact it pretty much is.

New bar = DP/SF/Armor of Earth/Stoneflesh/LB Sig/DC/GoLE/anything else - really, you can just take out the sliver skills (or even armor of earth really) for GoLE and you'll be fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Was it indeed the original point of the skill? Do we really want it to be usable to tank? Do you really like to have a completely invincible tank in a game? (OK not 100% invincible, but the closest we have to invincibility)

I tought the idea of the skill was to keep the assassin alive without allowign it to stay focused for hours. Basically to stay up long enough for a kill.

Personnally I'd go for something like that :

For 25 sec (at 16 shadowArt, that means 30 sec with enchant mod), Attack and spells against you miss. Cooldown : 60 sec.
That would mean the minimum cooldown is 30 sec, it last 30 sec. But there is a 1-2 second window while you recast it that kills you if you tank. Maybe the window should be bigger to make sure the sin die even with a monk.
And in normal gameplay it still give near total protection, just have to make sure you're away from the fight for 2-3 second once in a while.

Therefore, at 17 (12+1+3+1 from grail of might) = 26 or 27s, which is easily maintainable with glyph and deadly, even candy corn or apples could be used so you wouldn't need glyph :P

Eragon Zarroc · Nov 22, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

just quit >_< please and thank you.

Chthon · Nov 22, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Balance does not equal invulnerability, in any sense. If you want to include Mist Form, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Spell Breaker in the category of what should be destroyed, that's fine with me too.

I don't think I agree. The can't-be-target-of-spells mechanic is strong, but not inherently overpowered. Spell Shield and Obsidian Flesh have such nasty drawbacks that I don't find them problematic. Spell Breaker is only a problem with cons pushing its duration up higher and higher. Mist Form is a joke (and is a different mechanic anyway). The problem with SF is that its original drawback (which was so nasty it was considered a total junk skill) was essentially removed, as you can make sure it never triggers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I was thinking that it might be interesting to toy with completely removing the ability to deal damage while under it.

While that would stop perma farming and speed clearing, we'd still have to endure perma tank-n-spank.

Steps_Descending · Nov 22, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

You really want to keep ShadowTanking don't you Upier?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

just quit >_< please and thank you.

Who? Me? I hope not!

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

Therefore, at 17 (12+1+3+1 from grail of might) = 26 or 27s, which is easily maintainable with glyph and deadly, even candy corn or apples could be used so you wouldn't need glyph :P

He... Didn't think about them.

That means we're left with 3 option if we just change the duration :
1) The gap is big enough to make impratical for farming use. Reverting it back to something close the original 22 sec. So it's impossible to farm with it, but a casual assa could use a lot of cons and get near invincicility. Which won't happen, the farmers will probably use the cons and pray the monk can keep the tank alive for 2 second while he recasts SF.

2)Accept a maintainable SF with all the tanking that comes with it.

3) Have a patch rule in the line of : "SF cannot last more than X seconds" No matter what the Shadow Art stat is, what enchant mod you have or what cons you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I don't think I agree. The can't-be-target-of-spells mechanic is strong, but not inherently overpowered. Spell Shield and Obsidian Flesh have such nasty drawbacks that I don't find them problematic. Spell Breaker is only a problem with cons pushing its duration up higher and higher. Mist Form is a joke (and is a different mechanic anyway). The problem with SF is that its original drawback (which was so nasty it was considered a total junk skill) was essentially removed, as you can make sure it never triggers.

Chthon just summed it up. SF has a strong mecanic along with an upgraded version of another defensive mecanic as well as no drawbacks.

BUt hey! don't say Mist Form is a joke! I LOVE Mist Form! It's a fun skill! (and it's the only "invulnerability" skill that noone complains about. they could have made it naturally maintanable, even in PvP I don't think that would be SO gamebreaking)
I hope I did enough to make it clear I wasn't serious.

Fitz Rinley · Nov 22, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

The problem with SF is that it covers too many needs for the player base that the Dev.'s failed to satisfy in other ways. SF is important for most farming groups. Still, at least they are groups now, more than solo farmers and mass botting. If the economy in GW had ever been functional, instead of full of scammers, power mongers, elites who had full access and use of every exploit for months before it was nerfed, etc. - then trade would have been more fair and there wouldn't have been this massive reliance on min./maxed builds to farm so you can achieve game goals.

Of those I know who have left GW it is principally because the game is solely about farming. Of those who remain, they are either fascinated by the pretty pictures or consider farming to be the point of video gaming (whack-a-mole with bragging rights). It was bad about it when FoW and UW were exclusively controlled by HA. With the advent of Factions the Dev.s increased accessibility to gold, but exponentially increased the amount of farming in the game. Nightfall and Eye merely solidified this trend so that the only point to playing GW now is to farm for titles/items.

When they created a set-up with limited leveling - so that players could all be on an equivalent playing field (with equal obligations to practice) they failed to observe two other areas that would need level playing fields. One was financial success in game so that a character could readily obtain those things that made the appearance of what they played appealing. Another was leveling of skill effects so that all classes were equally functional. (I will give that this latter is very very hard to do - since min./maxers would then place the equivalent max effect skills of each class into a build nazi requirement to overpower the game and then complain because they didn't take time to enjoy it.)

SF needs to be left alone or even returned to its original functionallity until all classes are equally functional skill wise.

FengShuiDove · Nov 22, 2009, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueNovember

<--- Pretty much.
Skills that shouldn't be in the game should be effectively removed from the game.

So, changing a skill's functionality so that it no longer resembles the previous form in any way but name isn't sufficient, you would have a skill destroyed because it has somehow offended you? If it's an entirely different skill except for the name, what's the harm in having it remain a perfectly legitimate skill in an entirely different way than before?

I'm beginning to think people just hate the words "Shadow" and "Form" used conjunctively.

Is the OP's idea great? Nah, not really. But I agree with the idea of changing it so that it's still usable, just not for farming. Despite the heavy opposition to this (for whatever reason) in this thread, it really is the best course of action. Leaving it the same in functionality but changing certain aspects won't be good enough -- people will find ways around anything. Nerfing it into the ground wouldn't be smart -- it's removing a skill from usefulness and limiting the abilities of the profession without expanding them elsewhere.

Don't just be a pissy pants because you hate Shadow Form as it currently is. People calling for "balance" then calling for Smiter's Boon treatment should realize just how self-contradictory that is.

upier · Nov 22, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

You really want to keep ShadowTanking don't you Upier?

I've used SF a few times to run.
I wouldn't dream of wasting a perfectly good damage dealing slot for a tank.

MagmaRed · Nov 22, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Before this gets closed or merged with one of the many other SF topics.....

Perma is the problem, not SF. I have absolutely no problem with Shadow Form at all. I do have a problem with being able to maintain it 100% of the time. Though perhaps an easy fix that wouldn't completely restrict it from being perma, but would stop its abuse for farming.... make it like VoS. Can't be the target of any spell, friendly or enemy with it on. This would allow people to use daggers/spears/scythes/bows/etc. to do damage, but would not allow them to recast until it ended. Would also prevent all skills like Zealot's Fire from working to make a damage source out of the SF tank.

Joe Fierce · Nov 22, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

While that would stop perma farming and speed clearing, we'd still have to endure perma tank-n-spank.

That's still making a move more towards semi-balance than we've had in a long damned time.

Bob Slydell · Nov 22, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

http://www.wiki.guildwars.com/index....&oldid=1720146

That is the only balance that can be done to SF at this point.

Seriously though...How bout make SF end after a set amount of attacks.

subarucar · Nov 23, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

http://www.wiki.guildwars.com/index....&oldid=1720146

That is the only balance that can be done to SF at this point.

Seriously though...How bout make SF end after a set amount of attacks.

Lulz, I expected a link to Smiter's Boon.

Joe Fierce · Nov 23, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueNovember

<--- Pretty much.
Skills that shouldn't be in the game should be effectively removed from the game.

Or balanced to where they fit in the game. gg

Tenebrae · Nov 23, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

That's still making a move more towards semi-balance than we've had in a long damned time.

You are right but Anet had plenty of time to do something better ..... it would be a little "empty" victory but still a win yep.